Next Expansion Weapon Ratios

[Cicelee]

The assumption is that the next expansion is going to be a non level increase. Traditionally in the past, melee tend to have a higher DPS increase than casters due to new weapons (primary source of damage) whereas casters are more stagnant due to no new spells (primary source of damage). As it stands today, many feel that DPS classes are somewhat balanced, although it has skewed a bit to melee (especially monks) being higher than most/all. It is definitely not CasterQuest of the last several expansions where casters were dominant among the top ten.

To try and maintain some competitiveness between melee and caster classes, a thought would be to keep the current ratios on weapons in next expansion. Weapons will still get stat increases for h/m/e and heroics and mod2. The procs could be increased its normal amount if desired. New weapons will still be desired due to stat increases, but the ratio staying the same maintains some competitiveness between classes and prevents melee from turning the next expansion possibly into MeleeQuest.

Before all melee start to dislike and flame me because i am a caster main, I also raid with a monk. So a change like this affects me like it affects you. The goal is to try and maintain some competitive balance amongst DPS classes, which is closer now than it has been.

The questions become- do we want next expansion to maintain some competitive balance among DPS? Do we not care and welcome MeleeQuest? If weapon ratios are increased, what is given to casters help them be competitive? I am sure this thread topic will illicit professional debate conversation between all and not devolve into hatred and anger and flaming.

At least for the first three responses...

 

[Fanra]

I'm not for or against your idea, not without more study. However, I do not believe it is that simple. All classes will get new AAs which affect DPS. So if casters get the right AAs, their dps might even increase more than melee. Of course, melee will also get new dps AAs.

So, as usual, the spreadsheet gurus and parsers will have to factor in everything to see what happens.

In any case, I expect The Outer Brood to be much much more difficult than Laurion's Song. So we will need more DPS (and everything else) in order to do the content.

 

[fransisco]

Cicelee does raise a very important point. With the new weapon scaling, its gonna become melee quest. Guilds will have to justify bringing a caster when the dps gap is gonna be as big as the next weapon increase will bring.

While the idea of weapons turning into stat sticks for melee sounds awful, unfortunately casters know all about that problem. Our weapons are sadly meaningless. I suppose other options to address this damage gap could be:
1. significant focus AA increases for casters only.
2. big pet dps AA increases. This will be important for necro/mage as the ratio of spell to pet damage will change if only spell focuses increase
3. Making weapons matter for casters. Give them a stat like hdex that affects spells, or simply make SD do something noticable.

There are options, but the next expac is gonna wreck casters if something doesn't change. There has traditionally been a melee then caster pendulem between expacs. However the current spell increase expac which was supposed to be the caster one still favors melee. I'm fine not nerfing melee, but then casters need to be boosted by an equal amount simply to keep up, much less gain ground.

 

[Riou]

Weapons with just stats and no damage increase would be a waste of dev time to make and would not even bother acquiring or using them

Cicelee does raise a very important point. With the new weapon scaling, its gonna become melee quest. Guilds will have to justify bringing a caster when the dps gap is gonna be as big as the next weapon increase will bring.

This would be no different to how 2 out of 3 melee have been vs casters for the like 4 years prior to Laurion's Song

The Outer Brood is unlikely to go to the extremes we saw before LS of casters doubling 2 out of the 3 melee classes on all parses

 

[Tucoh]

As someone leveling a bunch of melee personas to my mage team, everyone boo Cicelee!! This guy singlehandedly got your belts nerfed!

Monks have been eating dirt for ten years before LS weapons were released. If you don't want the back under the boots if mages, their weapon ratios should be driven even higher!!

 

[Cicelee]

I'm not for or against your idea, not without more study. However, I do not believe it is that simple. All classes will get new AAs which affect DPS. So if casters get the right AAs, their dps might even increase more than melee. Of course, melee will also get new dps AAs.

So, as usual, the spreadsheet gurus and parsers will have to factor in everything to see what happens.

In any case, I expect The Outer Brood to be much much more difficult than Laurion's Song. So we will need more DPS (and everything else) in order to do the content.

I fully agree that the thought would require spreadsheet parsing and testing before it would be implemented. It is nothing more than a brainstorm idea to combat a DPS reality that has happened in the past during non level expansions. And who knows- maybe there is something in place for casters to maintain their position with melee in the next expansion that we just don't know about yet, which would make this thread irrelevant.

Having said that, it was an idea to promote competitiveness amongst all. CasterQuest was wrong for the past several years. But two wrongs don't make a right, and MeleeQuest for the next several years would also be wrong.

 

[Marton]

Maybe they can come up with a new Luminous Restless Ice Augment.

​

 

[Cicelee]

Weapons with just stats and no damage increase would be a waste of dev time to make and would not even bother acquiring or using them

I have a difficult time believing that every essence of power and finesse will just rot and/or go to the fourth alts/fifth personas. It may not be the #1 item to obtain for a melee, but considering the fact that players go crazy for new augments that increase heroics by a couple points, or give an extra 150 h/m/e.... I can see melee not being happy about a ratio increase, but still looting/making the weapons. My opinion of course.

 

[Kaelwyse]

simply make SD do something noticable.

This is the one I want.

If a stat exists, I want it to be meaningful for something. And I want all my gear to have some potential to increase my caster output.

(And while we are fixing spell damage, do the same thing to heal amount)

 

[Nennius]

This is the one I want.

If a stat exists, I want it to be meaningful for something. And I want all my gear to have some potential to increase my caster output.

(And while we are fixing spell damage, do the same thing to heal amount)

It does bug me when I find out that a stat is functionally meaningless. I don't really think the game needs placeholders. And as a pally, I wouldn't mind an increase in the effectiveness of my spells.

 

[fransisco]

It does bug me when I find out that a stat is functionally meaningless. I don't really think the game needs placeholders. And as a pally, I wouldn't mind an increase in the effectiveness of my spells.

Yup. It seems like an enormous design failure that there is no stat which matters for casters. They choose hint/hwis because spell shielding I guess? There is nothing any non-melee can do statwise to really improve their character. Hdex is a great thing, because it makes melee care about gear and stats.
I simply don't understand how its stayed this way for well over a decade. You'd think making 50% of the classes engaged in their class and carring about gear would be important to someone who wants the game to stay in business. Why should I sub and farm gear when it literally doesn't matter on my caster?

 

[Vumad]

I played Diablo 4 as a barbarian doing melee. It really was a great example of the problem with melee. While I had to stop doing damage to avoid the incoming spell damage, the caster classes stayed back and continued doing damage.

In EQ raids, it makes sense for melee to do more damage than casters because melee are more impacted by auras and emotes. They need to do higher DPS to make up for lower sDPS.

This does of course create a balance issue in group gameplay where it's often more of a tank and spank situation.

It would be cool if they added something like raid mob bane damage on weapons which would allow raid melee to do increased DPS in raid instances, making up for auras and emotes, while not jumping way ahead in group content.

While I do agree with Ciclee's objective, I would rather see melee move ahead proportionally and see a greater impact on something like the SP DMG modifier. The 3 T2 raid cloaks from this expansion have the same SP DMG on them despite it being clear that security should be for tanks and brilliance should be for casters. Outside of our foci, the lack of impact on DPS from caster gear makes it a lot less interesting than melee having so many weapons choices and competing for who has the best heroic stats. I think I would rather melee continue to see their improvements which makes their gameplay rewarding and the Devs to find someway to create a similar experience for casters.

 

[fransisco]

I played Diablo 4 as a barbarian doing melee. It really was a great example of the problem with melee. While I had to stop doing damage to avoid the incoming spell damage, the caster classes stayed back and continued doing damage.

In EQ raids, it makes sense for melee to do more damage than casters because melee are more impacted by auras and emotes. They need to do higher DPS to make up for lower sDPS.

This does of course create a balance issue in group gameplay where it's often more of a tank and spank situation.

It would be cool if they added something like raid mob bane damage on weapons which would allow raid melee to do increased DPS in raid instances, making up for auras and emotes, while not jumping way ahead in group content.

While I do agree with Ciclee's objective, I would rather see melee move ahead proportionally and see a greater impact on something like the SP DMG modifier. The 3 T2 raid cloaks from this expansion have the same SP DMG on them despite it being clear that security should be for tanks and brilliance should be for casters. Outside of our foci, the lack of impact on DPS from caster gear makes it a lot less interesting than melee having so many weapons choices and competing for who has the best heroic stats. I think I would rather melee continue to see their improvements which makes their gameplay rewarding and the Devs to find someway to create a similar experience for casters.

What is the point of a caster then? If melee do more damage, its strictly bad to play a caster on a raid. Everyone eats the AEs and the dots, which is most the damage anyways. Anyone can get agro and attacked, at which point the melee have greater survivability already.
Your idea is to functionally remove casters. If melee will always be better in all situations (dps is the only thing that matters), then why would casters exist? This would go even more for group play. If melee will be strictly better, its BAD to play a caster.

 

[Vumad]

What is the point of a caster then? If melee do more damage, its strictly bad to play a caster on a raid. Everyone eats the AEs and the dots, which is most the damage anyways. Anyone can get agro and attacked, at which point the melee have greater survivability already.
Your idea is to functionally remove casters. If melee will always be better in all situations (dps is the only thing that matters), then why would casters exist? This would go even more for group play. If melee will be strictly better, its BAD to play a caster.

They need to do higher DPS to make up for lower sDPS.

Do you know what this sentence means?

 

[Waring McMarrin]

I played Diablo 4 as a barbarian doing melee. It really was a great example of the problem with melee. While I had to stop doing damage to avoid the incoming spell damage, the caster classes stayed back and continued doing damage.

In EQ raids, it makes sense for melee to do more damage than casters because melee are more impacted by auras and emotes. They need to do higher DPS to make up for lower sDPS.

This does of course create a balance issue in group gameplay where it's often more of a tank and spank situation.

It would be cool if they added something like raid mob bane damage on weapons which would allow raid melee to do increased DPS in raid instances, making up for auras and emotes, while not jumping way ahead in group content.

While I do agree with Ciclee's objective, I would rather see melee move ahead proportionally and see a greater impact on something like the SP DMG modifier. The 3 T2 raid cloaks from this expansion have the same SP DMG on them despite it being clear that security should be for tanks and brilliance should be for casters. Outside of our foci, the lack of impact on DPS from caster gear makes it a lot less interesting than melee having so many weapons choices and competing for who has the best heroic stats. I think I would rather melee continue to see their improvements which makes their gameplay rewarding and the Devs to find someway to create a similar experience for casters.

Casters need to move for emotes and mob repositioning just as much as melee, I wouldn’t consider that a valid reason to increase melee dps.

 

[Bumkus]

As it stands today, many feel that DPS classes are somewhat balanced, although it has skewed a bit to melee (especially monks) being higher than most/all. It is definitely not CasterQuest of the last several expansions where casters were dominant among the top ten.

You weakened your own argument by acknowledging several expansions of caster dominance. I would edit that out, unless you are arguing that caster DPS should ALWAYS have an advantage over melee DPS.

Personally, I'm ok with Monks having a moment in the sun. They needed it. I like seeing Rogues higher in the parses too.

Moving forward, I'd like to see Rangers getting some lovin'. And i don't even like Rangers

One thing to note is that Raid events in LS have been pretty much optimal for Melee DPS. Relatively little target switching, and when we do need to switch targets, the mobs can be stacked close, so not much DPS is lost chasing down mobs. Also, very few PBAE effects that cannot be avoided or healed through. Not like the old days when AE Rampage would take out half the melee . I need to see what is in store next expansion before I'd start calling it melee quest.

 

[Cicelee]

You weakened your own argument by acknowledging several expansions of caster dominance. I would edit that out, unless you are arguing that caster DPS should ALWAYS have an advantage over melee DPS.

Personally, I'm ok with Monks having a moment in the sun. They needed it. I like seeing Rogues higher in the parses too.

Moving forward, I'd like to see Rangers getting some lovin'. And i don't even like Rangers

Just because there has been 5-10 expansions of CasterQuest (or however long it has been) doesn't mean we should have 5-10 expansions of MeleeQuest to "even it out". It was wrong then, and it would be wrong in the future. It isn't about a class finishing first, it is about all DPS regardless of class to have a chance. CasterQuest was dominated at the top by necromancers and magicians to the point other classes never had a chance to come within 20% or so. Now it feels like all DPS classes, save for Rangers unless on specific events, have a chance at a top 5/10 parse. Player skill becomes a focal point, not just random class of the month/year.

I don't understand how you perceived my goal as CasterQuest until sunset. I want all DPS to have a chance at a parse, not just one or two. If weapon ratios increase as they have in the past, there is going to potentially be a wide gap between melee and casters to where next expansion is MeleeQuest. I don't want that, I prefer DPSQuest over MeleeQuest and CasterQuest with regards to damage.

And as someone who has a fourth character of a ranger, I would welcome some love LOL

 

[Mookus]

Casters vs melee?

Among casters only mages and necros were OP ‘Casterquesting’.

Wizard boosted relatively from LI. But only lately.

Imo, the real distinction are dps classes versus tank classes. Mages imo should be considered tanks and lag far behind all other dps classes. But of course everyone made a mage box so balancing them appropriately is off the table.

 

[Disapointed]

Would love to hear from the mage god, about how he is getting wrecked by mellee this expansion. Sadly, I don't believe he is...

 

[Tucoh]

Casters vs melee?

Among casters only mages and necros were OP ‘Casterquesting’.

Wizard boosted relatively from LI. But only lately.

Imo, the real distinction are dps classes versus tank classes. Mages imo should be considered tanks and lag far behind all other dps classes. But of course everyone made a mage box so balancing them appropriately is off the table.

Agree with this. Because mages have such a good tank pet, they really should be balanced to have DPS somewhere between a paladin fighting normal body type mobs and bards.

This opinion has nothing to do with me moving away from my 3x mage team i ran for years.