How comes that nobody is talking about ToB yet ?

KushallaFV

Playing EverQuest
I had a long, inflammatory response that may not have been taken well by mods. I will just say this-

If we want actual change, we have to take an actual stand that impacts the financial bottom line in such a way that it is noticeable to the game company that will force a change. What if every member of the top 5/10/15 guilds decided to not buy the next expansion? What if every cleric and ranger and druid and <insert unhappy class> decided to cancel their subscription and not log in to the servers? I know the chances of all of this happening are zero, but that is kind of our faults as players for continually giving money to a product that we are disappointed and pessimistic in.

No, you can’t blame the players. If we didn’t keep EQ profitable then they would’ve shut it down shortly after EQ2 launched. EQ1 has never been a priority, otherwise launching Gates of Discord never would've happened.

A 26 year old game with declining sales isn't going to inspire re-investment its going to just mean they do layoffs and switch over to TLP launches as a priority.
 

Razgadz

Member
It is sad imho that so much Money went to other Projects. Thats why EQ is in this state today.

EQ 2 was fun for like a month or two - i tried to like it and came back to EQ pretty fast ...
Remember Everquest Next ?I don't even want to know how much money went in that sinkhole.

They could have taken EQ on a new engine with that money - i doubt though that the current and former leadership of EQ had much to say on where EQ is heading to - those decisions are done somewhere else.

With a newer and a tad more modern engine with a good toolset to do new content EQ would even be able to compete with current MMORPGS
But sorry to say - doubt it will happen - having to restart on a new EQ would not be something for me - im too old for that.

Guess as soon as there are no more updates on EQ that will be the end for my MMORPG times .)
 

Iven

Suggestions Bard
WoW was released a mere 5 years after EQ. Blizzard put their profits back into WoW, updated the engine, character models, etc. SOE did not put their profits back into EQ. EQ looks like crap today. EQ simply cannot compete in the marketplace.
They are slowly catching up but that train has passed. EQ and WoW have a very different base code structure which prevented to modernize EQ in a way like it was done for WoW. WoW seems to be modular from the beginning while original EQ is an experimental mess of spaghetti code that is based on a tank war game (Tanarus). EQ is Ford T while WoW is Ford F-Series. EQ is Velketor's Experiment while WoW is Velketor. The fact that character models 3.0 were never created is due to poor management. Ok, the Drakkin race is an exclusion.

Whatever new EQ product that is coming has been paid over many times. EG7 and Daybreak owe to the legions of absentee fans to create a modern version of EQ. We need an entirely fresh dev team that is fully staffed instead of the skeleton crew we have working on EQ.
The new project does need the skeleton crew for not becoming something really strange. The result of new staff is probably that EQ looks more and more like EQ II and a pony game. However that could had been imposed. But it is just logical that new art devs do add a new type of style.
 
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Iven

Suggestions Bard
I had a long, inflammatory response that may not have been taken well by mods. I will just say this-

If we want actual change, we have to take an actual stand that impacts the financial bottom line in such a way that it is noticeable to the game company that will force a change. What if every member of the top 5/10/15 guilds decided to not buy the next expansion? What if every cleric and ranger and druid and <insert unhappy class> decided to cancel their subscription and not log in to the servers? I know the chances of all of this happening are zero, but that is kind of our faults as players for continually giving money to a product that we are disappointed and pessimistic in.
A sign that most players are not very disappointed. The problem is that the players have not built a lobby, that they are divided, and that they do not own the game (or the names that they do use in RL), so their influence is small.
 
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Waring McMarrin

Well-known member
Go ahead and provide any example based on the concept of players choosing to keep a debuff, instead of curing it. I'm not going to list out a hundred different examples.

Why do we need to punish players in the first place I don’t see the need for anything of value to be placed on a debuff that you randomly get from a single expansion.

I am not providing any examples because I see no value in the idea of a debuff that can also provide benefits.
 

KushallaFV

Playing EverQuest
Why do we need to punish players in the first place I don’t see the need for anything of value to be placed on a debuff that you randomly get from a single expansion.

I am not providing any examples because I see no value in the idea of a debuff that can also provide benefits.

I mentioned it over and over, it gives players some moments to think about their gameplay choices. We've lost all decisions regarding abilities/spells, AAs, and gear. There's no differing paths to build a character, it's a fixed path. Again, they've chosen a fixed path where the debuff will be cured 100% of the time. This is boring gameplay. It could've just been a passive.

They need to be more creative and let people think about their gameplay. Give the debuff random penalties and bonuses together, let people think about if they want to use it. If they don't want it, then they can just cure it.
 

Waring McMarrin

Well-known member
I mentioned it over and over, it gives players some moments to think about their gameplay choices. We've lost all decisions regarding abilities/spells, AAs, and gear. There's no differing paths to build a character, it's a fixed path. Again, they've chosen a fixed path where the debuff will be cured 100% of the time. This is boring gameplay. It could've just been a passive.

They need to be more creative and let people think about their gameplay. Give the debuff random penalties and bonuses together, let people think about if they want to use it. If they don't want it, then they can just cure it.

So make a suggestion about spells and buffs that they can control and choose to get, not a mechanic from a single expansion based on a random debuff that they can’t control.

What you are suggesting is a false sense of control that only applies to a single expansion worth of zones.
 

Fanra

https://everquest.fanra.info
What you are suggesting is a false sense of control that only applies to a single expansion worth of zones.
Curse of Subjugation and Aureate's Bane are a new idea. If the developers find over time they like it, it might continue in some form in future expansions.

I'm not commenting on the idea as good or bad. I'm just saying it is something new they are trying and we will have to see how it goes. Some conclusions can be made now, others when we see how it affects gameplay.

All I'm saying is we don't know the future of EQ. I hope you guys and many others continue to discuss ways to improve EQ.

Thank you.
 

Encanis

Harbinger of Nightmares
Its more things to do, but the AA and spells are lackluster, raids are buggy, hopefully, they fix them in the next month before launch.
There doesn't seem to be much challenge, everything is just a bigger bag of HP
 

Tuco

Well-known member
The current expansion rotation is garbage, and encourages people to skip expansions.

Fact: level increase expansions represent tremendous gains in overall character power, especially with recent power inflation

Fact: no level increase expansions represent much less gains in overall character power, coming almost solely from gear inflation

Fact: level increase expansions make obsolete the last expansion's gear; and all expansions grant past expansions on purchase

The combination of these facts means that there is no reason at all to buy no level increase expansions, unless you really have nothing better to do with your time or raid with a guild that have nothing better to do with their time.

The optimal path is clearly to only purchase level increase expansions; and if you need to go back and get gear/achievements from a no level increase expansion, you can do so then with the benefit of character power inflation.

I am pretty sure level increase expansions aren't drastically higher cost to produce than no level increase expansions given that nearly all abilities are copy pasted any way. So money is literally being lost due to poor expansions planning.
That's funny. I really dislike level increase expansions and am planning on skipping the next one if the group content is trivial due to not presuming max level.
 

Tuco

Well-known member
It's a sunk cost fallacy. We've been playing so long, we don't want to stop and "lose all that invested time".
EQ also provides a unique MMO boxing experience.
Curse of Subjugation and Aureate's Bane are a new idea. If the developers find over time they like it, it might continue in some form in future expansions.
I love the concept and hope it's made into a standard riposte / reflect AA.
 

yepmetoo

Abazzagorath
Fact: level increase expansions make obsolete the last expansion's gear; and all expansions grant past expansions on purchase
No idea what this is supposed to mean. Gear has focii that is 5 levels higher than max level, and they have for like the last 20 levels.
 

yepmetoo

Abazzagorath
It's pretty hard to be excited about TOB. You could have said that for quite a few expansions now, but I think what's particularly disappointing to me is that the growth in the design team has paid no dividends in terms of quantity or quality of expansion content and class development. The bar just keeps getting lower, and it's deemed "enough" regardless of the team size.

For five expansions - EoK through CoV - the team had between 5 and 7 designers. This led to 6 - 7 zones, ~6 quests per zone, 4 missions, 8-9 raids, and sporadic class development. There were some highlights, including expansions with significant class changes/feedback (primarily EoK/ToV AAs), evolving items, etc., but they largely stuck to the mold.

Starting in ToL, they increased the design team size to 9. One of those designers left since, but the other 8 are still here, and this year they added 3 more for a total of 11. That's double the design team size from those aforementioned expansions. While I understand that training takes time, the designers hired during ToL development have now been on the team for over four years. It's a bit crazy that there are no dividends in terms of actual content. Here's that expressed graphically in terms of pure quantity of content (RoF -> TDS content is adjusted for what was released in each year):
View attachment 820

In VoA, there was a progression server launch during the development cycle that required far more manual work than most current rulesets, there was a level cap increase, new spells and AA for every class, twice the zones, more than twice the quests, 5 times the missions, and almost double the raids. That was with the same number of designers. I get that expecting the 3 new ones to put out that level of content is probably unfair, but it's insane to me to be okay with the same output as when the team was half the size.

This is especially notable on the spell/AA front. We get no communication from class developers after Beta ends, and now they ghost us in Beta too despite having done almost nothing in terms of spells/AAs all year. The AAs in TOB are copy/pastes of TBL, when we effectively had a part time AA dev (he was only dedicated to design for 3 months of the year, and also did achievements and the faction window during that time). Ganzito isn't dedicating 75% of his year to the engineering team like Dzarn was; what did he do with the rest of his year? Aristo in VoA did a level cap increase (before a number of optimizations to make the process faster), did parts of the Rubak Oseka zone, did actual spell changes/tuning during beta, and made new spells for every class. In TOB, he made 1/10th the spells he'd normally have to make on a level cap increase, absolutely no new spells, did no spell tuning, and had help from other designers starting and finishing spell development. What did he do all year? What did he do for a month during Beta? Why are other designers not even allowed to help with class development?

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions, but with unexceptional content, classes in woefully inadequate states, and very little communication explaining why this has to be the case despite all facts indicating it doesn't have to be the case, it's hard not to be extremely pessimistic. I know we talk about resources a lot, but I think there's a point where we have to accept that the people with the ability to make these changes - including their managers, etc. - truly do not care about EverQuest classes and are not interested in doing the work required to make them better.

Well, losing people that cared about the game (either personally or professionally) and then having to replace people doing the work of two or more people with people not trained in the minutia of this game's development is what that chart indicates to me. So it could get better, but I wouldn't bet on it unless they were lucky with their hires and those hires are allowed free reign to do things.
 

yepmetoo

Abazzagorath
Curse of Subjugation and Aureate's Bane are a new idea. If the developers find over time they like it, it might continue in some form in future expansions.

I'm not commenting on the idea as good or bad. I'm just saying it is something new they are trying and we will have to see how it goes. Some conclusions can be made now, others when we see how it affects gameplay.

All I'm saying is we don't know the future of EQ. I hope you guys and many others continue to discuss ways to improve EQ.

Thank you.
Not really new. They have had several expansions with zone debuffs that you removed via progression. Its a slow down mechanic. The difference this time is that they put the emphasis on making you actively click a button AND you get a bonus. Rather have had a new luminous aug.
 

KushallaFV

Playing EverQuest
No. That implies you're having fun and that you like playing EQ.

Forum lifers have forbidden fun in any form. If you don't agree with their slanted assessment of the game, its content, people, developers, or really anything - they'll burn you in effigy.

The hype train needs a conductor. It looks like you gotta step up, and get the hype train rolling.
 

Waring McMarrin

Well-known member
Curse of Subjugation and Aureate's Bane are a new idea. If the developers find over time they like it, it might continue in some form in future expansions.

I'm not commenting on the idea as good or bad. I'm just saying it is something new they are trying and we will have to see how it goes. Some conclusions can be made now, others when we see how it affects gameplay.

All I'm saying is we don't know the future of EQ. I hope you guys and many others continue to discuss ways to improve EQ.

Thank you.

I am just saying that we shouldn’t be pushing to add some positives to the debuff to make it a question of wanting to hit the cure or not.
 
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